MotoGP Forum  

Go Back   MotoGP Forum > MotoGP Forum > MotoGP

MotoGP MotoGP Forum - MotoGP Class Motorcycle Racing Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
November 24th, 2010, 01:14 AM   #41
Senior Member
 
J4rn0's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Tuscany, Italy

Posts: 3,798
Likes: 726

I Ride: Yamaha and Ducati
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryMachine View Post
Certainly did!, where's the bits showing that Rossi will be up there next tests ?


Who said Rossi will be up there?
J4rn0 is offline  
 
November 24th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #42
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: UK

Posts: 300

I cant quite make up my mind about you Jumkie (I don't mean that in a derogatory way)

Most of the time, I find your posts interesting, well thought out & well written. But sometimes I cant decide if you are well informed, full of it, or just have way too much time on your hands.

This thread is a perfect example with your Dorna / Rossi conspiracy theory. Are there back room deals going on that we don't know about?, I guess like in all business, they do go on. Is it all as bad as you made it sound? I hope not, but if it is, I'd rather not know about it. Ignorance really can be bliss.

Don't get me wrong, it was an interesting read non the less, but I'm not quite there yet.

Keep posting and I'll keep reading.
SprogTheDog is offline  
November 24th, 2010, 02:54 AM   #43
Tom
Senior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2006
From: West Yorkshire, UK

Posts: 9,351

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyvvc View Post
This thread is fuckin hilarious, you guys



Err no he aint!!


Initially at least, yes he is. Rossi, just like Melandri is an Italian who has moved from a team they've been with for a long time and fallen out of love with, and over to Ducati with a lot of hype about how his form will improve in the Italian dream team. Like Melandri Rossi had hoped he could unlock Stoner's speed and show the world how good he is, but is a rider who needs a smooth bike and a planted front end. Like Melandri he got on the Ducati and couldn't do it.



That is where the similarity ends though because Rossi is head strong, he wouldn't fall into the pit that Melandri got into at the worst of times, also, Ducati will listen to Rossi and not question his feedback because A) Rossi has a proven record of success and the stature not to be questioned on such issues, and They don't have Stoner on the same bike running at the front. Ducati will change to suit Rossi, without a doubt they'll get to the front next year



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
Now u tell me, if this was an honest competition, would Honda hav designed their 07 bike around the non champ?


Definitely
Tom is offline  
November 24th, 2010, 03:02 AM   #44
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2007
From: Norah Head

Posts: 9,434
Likes: 977

I Ride: Many
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
Who said Rossi will be up there?


Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
He and Burgess gave indications to Ducati that should allow Rossi to feel confident enough, next time, to push and break into the 'fast zone' of the Ducati. Only then the real testing will begin. So it's all postponed to Sepang.


This,





were did you see these "indications"?
BarryMachine is offline  
November 24th, 2010, 03:38 AM   #45
Senior Member
 
Joined: May 2007
From: sydney australia

Posts: 10,587
Likes: 2112

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprogTheDog View Post
I cant quite make up my mind about you Jumkie (I don't mean that in a derogatory way)

Most of the time, I find your posts interesting, well thought out & well written. But sometimes I cant decide if you are well informed, full of it, or just have way too much time on your hands.

This thread is a perfect example with your Dorna / Rossi conspiracy theory. Are there back room deals going on that we don't know about?, I guess like in all business, they do go on. Is it all as bad as you made it sound? I hope not, but if it is, I'd rather not know about it. Ignorance really can be bliss.

Don't get me wrong, it was an interesting read non the less, but I'm not quite there yet.

Keep posting and I'll keep reading.
I think it is not a conspiracy theory to say that dorna are suited by rossi doing well, and I certainly don't think they would deliberately impede him or favour others over him. The problem with any conspiracy theory involving dorna is that they are imo very definitely not sufficiently competent to carry out a successful conspiracy. The thing that lends credence to there being a conspiracy regarding rossi and tyres in recent times is that the current control tyre appears to disadvantage rossi, which would be consistent with dorna trying to help him .



I don't have a problem with rossi ending up with access to the same tyres as stoner and everyone else; I do have a problem with rossi fans complaining about stoner having had advantages, and I have a problem if stoner/ducati were deliberately with malice aforethought denied the tyres for which ducati had developed their bike (lex's theory which I don't think can be entirely dismissed), although as with all human endeavours particularly those invoving dorna this was more likely an unintended consequence. Where I would part company with jumkie is if he thinks rossi's success is unrelated to his talent; I am sure he does not think this.



Fwiw regarding the michelin/bridgestone tyre war including saturday night specials in 2006 and recent years preceding then I am pretty much in agreement with jumkie.To my knowledge michelin, the very long term premier tyre provider, provided tyres free to some teams, notably hrc and the yamaha factory team, and charged other teams, obviously all of whom were non-factory teams but not necessarily all the non-factory teams . I think it unlikely that they would have charged the teams to whom they otherwise provided tyres for free for sns tyres; whether the teams they already charged paid extra for sns tyres I do not know. It was also rumoured to which I think kropotkin alluded that in addition to teams to whom they regularly provided sns tyres extra allocations were made to riders and/or teams who performed well in practice for a given race. Bridgestone on the other hand entered motogp to take on michelin, whether for commercial/advertising reasons, because they genuinely believed racing helped tyre development, because they had some mad bike racing enthusiasts or whatever and provided tyres for free to ducati, suzuki and their satellite teams.



Whether the tyre situation was unfair is a philosophical question rather than one with a definite answer. It could perhaps be considered at least inequitable that the most monied teams did not have to pay for tyres. It is fairly definite that valentino rossi had a tyre advantage over some michelin riders, including casey stoner in 2006.
michaelm is online now  
November 24th, 2010, 04:32 AM   #46
Senior Member
 
Mental Anarchist's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Earth

Posts: 1,631
Likes: 19

Jumkie, WWF looks real but isn't? The only way WWF looks real is if you poke a stick in both eyes and then squint with what ever eye sight you have left!!!



Michael, A conspiracy theory requires an attempt to keep the act secret. It is my opinion that there was no attempt to keep the act of assisting Rossi to get BS's a secret. I think Dorna is happy to be upfront with Rossi's fans that they will do what ever is necessary to ensure he wins. After all they want to keep on side with the 80% of people who watch.



I have said it before but the politics of MotoGP is enthralling if you are into that sort of thing. In the corporate world it is far less likely to get blow by blow media insights into the secret deals happening behind closed doors. Where as in MotoGP it gets played out in the media on a weekly basis. The best way to follow the politics is to not follow a specific rider as it clouds your perception. We see this from Rossi fans who deny politics happens even when it happens in black and white in front of them. I don't blame them as when I watch my rugby team play I only see and swear at the bad calls the ref makes against my team!
Mental Anarchist is offline  
November 24th, 2010, 09:58 AM   #47
Senior Member
 
Jumkie's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
From: Your Mom's House

Posts: 24,726
Likes: 3980

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprogTheDog View Post
I cant quite make up my mind about you Jumkie (I don't mean that in a derogatory way)

Most of the time, I find your posts interesting, well thought out & well written. But sometimes I cant decide if you are well informed, full of it, or just have way too much time on your hands.

This thread is a perfect example with your Dorna / Rossi conspiracy theory. Are there back room deals going on that we don't know about?, I guess like in all business, they do go on. Is it all as bad as you made it sound? I hope not, but if it is, I'd rather not know about it. Ignorance really can be bliss.

Don't get me wrong, it was an interesting read non the less, but I'm not quite there yet.

Keep posting and I'll keep reading.
Thank you for your honest reply. I appreciate what you are saying. Usually people just battle for the sake of it because they peg me as hating Rossi. This is were the conversation usually ends and the arguing begins. The truth is, some, not all, does unfortunately revolve around him since he's become such a prominent figure. I've often said, but they will ignore it, that Rossi has the right to ask, hell he can ask for an extra few ccs or even a head start, its up to the governing body to deny this and treat everybody even handed. But the Rossi fan will continue to argue with me as its just unacceptable to them for me to include Rossi in a conversation of favoritism even thought I place more blame on Dorna.



Now on this thread, the question is will Melandri experience the same as Rossi. Again, Rossi is sown within the fabric of the conversation, and since Melandri has recently indicted GP as having uneven handed treatment of its contestants, then its fair to explore this reality. (Even though, as you can see, a few have dropped off from the thread because they view it as another Rossi vs X thread. Well the fact is, most threats are going to have this element, since he has become such a great figure in the sport, and I'd say, even to the point that some see him as the sport or above the sport. They won't admit that, but the debate they propose will certainly express it. Just a small example, check out the Burgess quote I posted, at the time, peeps rationalized that it was fair since Rossi had won so many titles, therefore deserved a special treatment. If that is not enough, just re-read what Burgess said, he said "alarm bells would have been ringing" where? In the Dorna office. Why? Well Burgess tells us why, because Rossi pulls in "20-60 percent" of the viewers at a GP. He goes on to say, he had to "push" and he did so not through the "normal channels". Have you asked yourself what other channels exist? Are this "channels" also available to all the contestants? If not, then what is this in reference to?



So what about this, am I making up? What about this is "misinformation"? I'm just showing you a quote, and its rather self explanatory. It quiet reveling, and infact I have a worse one I shared recently with another member. Would you like to see it?



Sadly, I think its even worse than what we are privy to, since most that leaks out is on the heels of a few who, when asked careful questions, reveal more than they wanted. Also, like this year, sometimes a rider's ego is so strong that they will say things in the media that also reveals much about the dynamic. I'm not the one asking them the questions. But sometimes the series of events are so suspect that even a journalist feels compelled to call these guys on the carpet. And make no mistake, all of these journalist are fans of the sport, which means they are also fans of Rossi as is much of their readers. So journalist must be careful not to upset their readers base. Can you imagine if I was a journalist? How many readers would I get if I questioned the integrity of the sport and the pressure its greatest figure exerts on the governing body.



I don't know how old you are or if you follow politics, but here is an example. Sorry for the example, but please, lets not argue it particulars of the example. Most people around the world will tell you The US go involved in Iraq because of OIL. Yet, I never read a press release that stated this. Why? Because its obvious right? Without getting more into politics, this is my point, that people who have argued against what I've proposed counter with the fact that a press release is missing to confirm this as "fact".





Anyway, I accept the flaws of the sport. I was asked why I watch, its because I like all things motorcycle. All these men on the grid are extraordinary! None of the bikes ride themselves. But also,I am under no allusion that the contest is a pure and authentic competition. Listen to the post race interview, notice how all the riders will cite a small problem (including the winners) that hampered thier race progress. That's how technical the sport is, that even a small nuance can have a dramatic effect on the result. So why, oh why, when we are privy to some advantage ill gotten do we forget about it, sweep it under the rug? Then declare, all is even handed and the results represent purely the rider's talent. I don't think I've asked this before, but many argued that Rossi getting the Bstones was simply making the playing field even. It was something that Rossi needed to compete on a level with Stoner. Then what about the other riders who were left to battle on Michelins? Was this not decidedly unfair to them? How about the reverse, had Dorna not pressured Bstone into supplying Rossi and he had stayed on the Michelins, would this have been an unfair situation? The biggest problem was that Dorna did pressure Bstone for only one contestant. At the time, Pedrosa and Hayden also wanted Bstones. So why did only one get it? Pedrosa then changed mid season, an egregious act of favoritism, while his teammate Nicky was left on the Michelins. This left the top two factories split, Yamaha and Honda. The two most influential riders of the sport were awarded the Bstones after the manufacture had publicly said they would not do so. What could possibly make them change their mind? It sure wasn't Jesus.
Jumkie is offline  
November 24th, 2010, 10:26 AM   #48
Senior Member
 
J4rn0's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
From: Tuscany, Italy

Posts: 3,798
Likes: 726

I Ride: Yamaha and Ducati
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryMachine View Post
This,





were did you see these "indications"?


In the sky?
J4rn0 is offline  
November 24th, 2010, 10:28 AM   #49
Senior Member
 
Jumkie's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
From: Your Mom's House

Posts: 24,726
Likes: 3980

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I think it is not a conspiracy theory to say that dorna are suited by rossi doing well, and I certainly don't think they would deliberately impede him or favour others over him. The problem with any conspiracy theory involving dorna is that they are imo very definitely not sufficiently competent to carry out a successful conspiracy. The thing that lends credence to there being a conspiracy regarding rossi and tyres in recent times is that the current control tyre appears to disadvantage rossi, which would be consistent with dorna trying to help him .
Haha, pretty funny your last sentence. Anyway buddy, I don't understand why you are saying "deliberately...favour others over him." Its my contention they have "favoured" him over others.





Quote:
I don't have a problem with rossi ending up with access to the same tyres as stoner and everyone else; I do have a problem with rossi fans complaining about stoner having had advantages, and I have a problem if stoner/ducati were deliberately with malice aforethought denied the tyres for which ducati had developed their bike (lex's theory which I don't think can be entirely dismissed), although as with all human endeavours particularly those invoving dorna this was more likely an unintended consequence. Where I would part company with jumkie is if he thinks rossi's success is unrelated to his talent; I am sure he does not think this.


I do have a problem with Rossi ending up with the Bstones because of the way it went down. The series of events was clearly an indication that Dorna were going to change everything and nothing was off the table to ensure that Rossi got what he wanted. This lead to the scrapping of a 59 year history of a tyre war. Of course Rossi is among the most talented riders ever. That has not been the question, ever with me. Not sure why you would even mention this, its the advantage he's enjoyed by virtue of his influence and Dorna's willingness to do his bidding (and not entirely without Rossi's pressure) that I have a problem with. I place most of the blame on the governing body, but Rossi is not blameless.



Quote:
Fwiw regarding the michelin/bridgestone tyre war including saturday night specials in 2006 and recent years preceding then I am pretty much in agreement with jumkie.To my knowledge michelin, the very long term premier tyre provider, provided tyres free to some teams, notably hrc and the yamaha factory team, and charged other teams, obviously all of whom were non-factory teams but not necessarily all the non-factory teams . I think it unlikely that they would have charged the teams to whom they otherwise provided tyres for free for sns tyres; whether the teams they already charged paid extra for sns tyres I do not know. It was also rumoured to which I think kropotkin alluded that in addition to teams to whom they regularly provided sns tyres extra allocations were made to riders and/or teams who performed well in practice for a given race. Bridgestone on the other hand entered motogp to take on michelin, whether for commercial/advertising reasons, because they genuinely believed racing helped tyre development, because they had some mad bike racing enthusiasts or whatever and provided tyres for free to ducati, suzuki and their satellite teams.


This is rather generally accpeted truth. Which I find it hilarious that Talpa, our friend, would question this, and then suddenly think this was recent news. Check you're PM. I'll sent you the link where I've said this before. Haha



Quote:
Whether the tyre situation was unfair is a philosophical question rather than one with a definite answer. It could perhaps be considered at least inequitable that the most monied teams did not have to pay for tyres. It is fairly definite that valentino rossi had a tyre advantage over some michelin riders, including casey stoner in 2006.


Had Bstone held their ground we might have a Michelin control tire in the sport. That is outrageous right. Well, it almost came to that, as Bstone were threatened in such a manner. But lets for a moment toy with the idea had Bstone held its ground and Rossi would have been forced to ride on Michelin or nothing (pun intended). He either would have retired or raced on Michelin, right? So if he had stayed on Michelin, would the perceived advantage of the Bstones would have been so that many would have seen the title as tainted? Yes or no? I'd think yes, there would have been hell to pay, right. Well, infact, some riders were forced to stay on Michelin. This is the year where Rossi scored (up until this season) the most points ever. Now think about this.
Jumkie is offline  
November 24th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #50
Tom
Senior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2006
From: West Yorkshire, UK

Posts: 9,351

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
But also,I am under no allusion that the contest is a pure and authentic competition. Listen to the post race interview, notice how all the riders will cite a small problem (including the winners) that hampered thier race progress. That's how technical the sport is, that even a small nuance can have a dramatic effect on the result.


That is simply the nature of motorsport, it has always been like that.
Tom is offline  
Reply

  MotoGP Forum > MotoGP Forum > MotoGP

Tags
melandri, rossi



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Melandri throws barbs @ Rossi VTtwinner MotoGP 63 June 7th, 2010 05:02 PM
Melandri Nuts MotoGP 1 April 11th, 2010 11:58 PM
Melandri loosmark MotoGP 67 May 5th, 2008 02:39 PM
Melandri tinks MotoGP 17 July 12th, 2007 02:49 AM
Melandri the dj!! BEN MotoGP 3 June 7th, 2005 01:44 AM


Facebook Twitter Google+ RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2018 Powerslide. All rights reserved.
MotoGP Forum is a MotoGP enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent MotoGP or Dorna Sports, S.L. of Madrid, Spain.