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February 24th, 2016, 06:58 PM   #1
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KTM accuses Honda of cheating

KTM Claims Honda Exceeded Moto3 Rev Limit
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February 25th, 2016, 12:58 AM   #2
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Quote:
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Is that article seriously suggesting that after 12000rpm (200Hz) the ECU is guessing the RPM?
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February 25th, 2016, 08:59 AM   #3
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Is that article seriously suggesting that after 12000rpm (200Hz) the ECU is guessing the RPM?

Don't think so mate, where did you see that?
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February 25th, 2016, 10:35 AM   #4
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Interesting. The categories have been accused of cheating before, usually dismissed as conspiracy, but KTM's accusation is potentially earth shattering, which is why I think nothing will come out conclusive. I just don't see Dorna letting the series be damaged, hell we saw how they circled the wagons to protect their reputation at Valencia with unprecedented gaging orders.

Btw it doesn't need to be by 100 RPM. At 13,501 is cheating.
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February 25th, 2016, 10:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr No View Post
Is that article seriously suggesting that after 12000rpm (200Hz) the ECU is guessing the RPM?
You would probably know more than me on such technical questions, but that's not how I read it, not sure where you're getting this from the article. From my understanding of what was written in the piece, it sounds like the ECU is sampling at a low enough frequency that over rev past the limit is possible, and the accusation being that Honda exploited it. The ECU is not "guessing" but it's unsophisticated enough (it sounds) to sample at a higher frequency, and hence may bounce past the limit.

Last edited by Jumkie; February 25th, 2016 at 11:10 AM.
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February 25th, 2016, 11:21 AM   #6
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KTM accuses Honda of cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr No View Post
Is that article seriously suggesting that after 12000rpm (200Hz) the ECU is guessing the RPM?

Ah ok. I see it is mentioned in the original article.

The answer to your question is no. The ECU isn't calculating the RPM from a crank position signal, it's presented with an RPM signal which it samples at a rate of 200 times a second. So it knows the instantaneous value of RPM every 5 msecs. That means it can make a control decision every 5 msecs, but it doesn't mean it can make step changes in RPM at that rate, because there are time constants (and nonlinearities) in the overall system, which means the actual RPM will always lag behind the demand coming from the ECU.
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Last edited by Cool Blue; February 25th, 2016 at 12:08 PM.
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February 25th, 2016, 12:09 PM   #7
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Reading the original article (as best I can from translation) there is a lot of juicy stuff. For one, Pit Beirer sounds way more pissed about the situation, and speaks like he is absolutely sure this not only occurred but that Honda called for the reduction of the rev limit after it had been changed from 15K to suddenly 14K, then further this year to 13.5K; based on pressure from Honda under the guise of cost reduction. Hahaha, we definitely have heard this shit before. Dude also says pinching the engine at 13.5K was opposed by KTM and he deems it pointless, and further says it's arbitrary and has fuck all to do with cost. Not to mention dude also straight up says Dorna, IRTA, and FIM officials are not studying the electronic data when provided during the season, "that much is clear." Hahaha, oh lord. This shit is juicy.

KTM set to enter MotoGP under a control ECU. Granted the MM ECU is more sophisticated, but that doesn't mean it can't be exploited, as we learning from modern technology, anything electronic is hackable (except iPhones by the FBI apparently).

Last edited by Jumkie; February 25th, 2016 at 12:27 PM.
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February 25th, 2016, 12:45 PM   #8
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Don't know what ktm is bitching about. They did their fair share of cheating when the moto 3 class was introduce. Honda did lightly touch on the fact that they ktm exploited the rules. Honda did not bitch about like ktm is doing now. They unleashing an ass whooping on them thru technology & called it a day. Nothing is going to happened, ktm should already know that.
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February 25th, 2016, 01:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Ah ok. I see it is mentioned in the original article.

The answer to your question is no. The ECU isn't calculating the RPM from a crank position signal, it's presented with an RPM signal which it samples at a rate of 200 times a second. So it knows the instantaneous value of RPM every 5 msecs. That means it can make a control decision every 5 msecs, but it doesn't mean it can make step changes in RPM at that rate, because there are time constants (and nonlinearities) in the overall system, which means the actual RPM will always lag behind the demand coming from the ECU.
Semantics, but I'd reword that.
The only way the engine presents a signal to the ECU is via the CPS. Which it (supposedly) samples at 200Hz.

Now ignition timing doesn't need 1rpm resolution, nor do most maps nestled in thr ECU, but to suggest a the imprecision of a 200Hz sampling rate can hide 100rpm is stupid.
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February 25th, 2016, 01:53 PM   #10
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Semantics, but I'd reword that.
Semantics? Haha, wait you said "guessing" that's not even close. Coming from you who demands precision in our posts, if not a good'o gotcha is to be expected. ECUs don't "guess" as much as your computer doesn't veer from its program because it's confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr No View Post
The only way the engine presents a signal to the ECU is via the CPS. Which it (supposedly) samples at 200Hz.

Now ignition timing doesn't need 1rpm resolution, nor do most maps nestled in thr ECU, but to suggest a the imprecision of a 200Hz sampling rate can hide 100rpm is stupid.
Why don't you believe it samples at 200Hz? And before you say, you're not saying that, you are suggesting it: "(supposedly)".


Ok, maybe maybe not 100RPM (honestly I wouldn't know) but what about 1RPM? If you demand precision, is not 13,501 already technically cheating? Also, what of the rate of demands for change from the ECU? Krop's article does not give us specif information on this units capability and the original one in German (as far as i can tell) doesn't either, so why are you assuming the bounce doesn't go past? In fact Krop's piece says the unit is "basic" and does "not react quick enough".

"The spec Dell’Orto ECU is a very basic unit, with limited power, and so cannot react quickly enough. The result is that for a split second, the revs exceed the limit, before being cut by the ECU."


Seriously Doc, I'm trying to understand why you're so skeptical.

Last edited by Jumkie; February 25th, 2016 at 02:12 PM.
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