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September 26th, 2016, 06:31 PM   #21
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They'd all end up as V-twins. Anything parallel would be a vibrating mess.
If they for some reason really wanted to go with a twin, id much prefer they used a de-stroked Harley Davidson 883 sporty motor. They could also fit ape hangers and tassels to the handle bars. Would make the racing much more entertaining to for the viewers.
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September 26th, 2016, 11:34 PM   #22
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I'm not so sure about Bartol's pronouncement.The gas dynamics in a two stroke don't really lend themselves to the same electronic interventions as a four stroke.
The pinnacle of two stroke racers was the Aprilia 125 with the rear disc valve, Mid-50hp and not much more than (complex) gear-by-gear ignition mapping and PV control.
But then, who knows what could've developed had there been more factory involvement (not to mention the intervening half decade)
No of course not, but that wasn't his point. I've heard the same echoed by Tom O'Kane and Moriwaki, that the 500cc two strokes had huge potential for power increases although as I intimated, and as you correctly point out, the factory development of this would have been along very different lines.

I always supposed that the disc valve Aprilia's were harder to master than the reed valve Honda's.
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September 27th, 2016, 01:15 AM   #23
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If they for some reason really wanted to go with a twin, id much prefer they used a de-stroked Harley Davidson 883 sporty motor. They could also fit ape hangers and tassels to the handle bars. Would make the racing much more entertaining to for the viewers.
Something similar here in uk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIYk0h--xf8

Total carnage
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September 27th, 2016, 01:57 AM   #24
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Something similar here in uk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIYk0h--xf8

Total carnage
Its great how the field stays so compressed, 4 wide into every corner lol. Some really good cheap entertaining racing.

I remember after many ales at PI we thought is would be great to have a Honda CT110 postie bike race as a support event for the MotoGP weekend.

I know the crowd would absolutely love it and be in fits of laughter. Something like this but with a 60+ bike field, most likely 7 wide coming into every corners with elbows flying into each other. I think it would really take off if done right.

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September 27th, 2016, 03:11 AM   #25
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A friend of mine lives in the Hunter Valley and went to this, need more of it. Bayliss entered in 2015 for a laugh.



http://www.cessnockadvertiser.com.au...ke-grand-prix/

Last edited by AJV80; September 27th, 2016 at 03:17 AM.
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September 27th, 2016, 04:42 PM   #26
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No of course not, but that wasn't his point. I've heard the same echoed by Tom O'Kane and Moriwaki, that the 500cc two strokes had huge potential for power increases although as I intimated, and as you correctly point out, the factory development of this would have been along very different lines.

I always supposed that the disc valve Aprilia's were harder to master than the reed valve Honda's.
Again, I'm not certain what these claims for huge power increases are based on. I've not seen any technological proposal that would allow for it within the scope of the old two stroke rules. Can you elaborate?
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September 27th, 2016, 04:49 PM   #27
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If they for some reason really wanted to go with a twin, id much prefer they used a de-stroked Harley Davidson 883 sporty motor. They could also fit ape hangers and tassels to the handle bars. Would make the racing much more entertaining to for the viewers.
Spokey Dokes, don't forget the Spokey Dokes...
And a leather tool roll attached to the forks.
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September 28th, 2016, 12:23 AM   #28
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Again, I'm not certain what these claims for huge power increases are based on. I've not seen any technological proposal that would allow for it within the scope of the old two stroke rules. Can you elaborate?
I'm not sure what you mean. Within the scope of the 'old two stroke rules'? It's a projection - why would it need to be within the scope of the old two stroke rules which were rendered defunct anyway. Had two strokes continued to evolve, the rule book would have been rewritten to reflect this. Which particular rules are you referring to? Technically, why do you doubt the claim that there was so much more potential in the race development of the 500cc two stroke formula? It's a complete myth that these machines had reached the ceiling of their development cycle. The issue was almost solely based on emissions and marketing.
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September 28th, 2016, 02:52 AM   #29
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I'm not sure what you mean. Within the scope of the 'old two stroke rules'? It's a projection - why would it need to be within the scope of the old two stroke rules which were rendered defunct anyway. Had two strokes continued to evolve, the rule book would have been rewritten to reflect this. Which particular rules are you referring to? Technically, why do you doubt the claim that there was so much more potential in the race development of the 500cc two stroke formula? It's a complete myth that these machines had reached the ceiling of their development cycle. The issue was almost solely based on emissions and marketing.
When the #1 State of the Art engine - with 54 hp from a 125cc cylinder - had to go through the effort and complexity of sticking the rotary valve on the back on the engine to gain a couple of hp (due to improved intake run into a crank spinning in the same direction as the intake charge) I question how much further they could've gone.
This solution wouldn't fit on a V4....
Power is increased by improving torque or increasing revs.
On the torque side: aforementioned engine made circa 16.5bar BMEP (30odd N.m at 12k)....that's gonna be hard to get a big increase on. A bit more CFD analysis might yield some gains,...wasn't used in that engine's developement
On the revs side: the whole circumference of the cylinder is chock full of ports. There's very little scope to increase time.area. No miracle revs
So where are the increases going to come from?
The main headscratchers before the 2Ts died was part-throttle issues. Deto.
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September 28th, 2016, 03:25 AM   #30
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Shit doc, that's way too factual/deep.
The accepted standard for gp knowledge here is cataloging the shite oxley sprouted in 30 years on mcn.

Maybe you guys lived under a rock since 2002? 2 strokes are much evolved.
They smell nicer,sound better and go like stink. They just had to add another 2 strokes.
As I'm sure my fellow 69er vet mike McMichael can attest the bang is much better when you don't have to blow while sucking.

Last edited by propagandhi; September 28th, 2016 at 03:27 AM. Reason: Hihi.pommesbudenparkplatzluder
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